"And yet, with El Americano, they went over there, they helped them load the wounded and all that shit, and then, "Ok, you guys can leave..." They allowed them to take all their pickups and didn't arrest anybody, they didn't take anyone's weapons..."
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Transcript of interview day after gunfight, translation by Un Vato;
C = Ciro Gomez Leyva
H = Hipolito Mora
C: Hipolito, good morning.
H: Good morning, at your service.
C: How did it go last night, Hipolito?
H: Bad, very bad.
C: Are you in La Ruana?
H: Yes, at the barricade, here, where everything took place.
C: Tell us, before we go into anything else, Hipolito, please tell us a little about your son, about Manolo, 32 years old.
H: Well,... he was a very disciplined young man, a good son. Every time I gave him an order to do something, I only had to do it once. I never had to tell him twice. He was very serious, did not talk much, very loved by the people in this town. He never used bad words. A good son and a good brother.
C: And, Hipolito, was your son also an "autodefensa" from the beginning?
H: He was always by my side.
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C: So then, who's not allowing you to leave?
C = Ciro Gomez Leyva
H = Hipolito Mora
C: Hipolito, good morning.
H: Good morning, at your service.
C: How did it go last night, Hipolito?
H: Bad, very bad.
C: Are you in La Ruana?
H: Yes, at the barricade, here, where everything took place.
C: Tell us, before we go into anything else, Hipolito, please tell us a little about your son, about Manolo, 32 years old.
H: Well,... he was a very disciplined young man, a good son. Every time I gave him an order to do something, I only had to do it once. I never had to tell him twice. He was very serious, did not talk much, very loved by the people in this town. He never used bad words. A good son and a good brother.
C: And, Hipolito, was your son also an "autodefensa" from the beginning?
H: He was always by my side.
C: Always by your side...
H: One time he hugged me and told me, sobbing, "Papi, they're going to kill you" He placed a rosary around my neck and I prayed with him.
And what I told him was, "Forgive me, my son, forgive me for being your father." (Hipolito is sobbing) "I am going to go forward, whatever happens, and I ask you to forgive me for being the way I am, for thinking the way I do. For having been poor as a child, barefoot, without even a pair of sandals."
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And what I told him was, "Forgive me, my son, forgive me for being your father." (Hipolito is sobbing) "I am going to go forward, whatever happens, and I ask you to forgive me for being the way I am, for thinking the way I do. For having been poor as a child, barefoot, without even a pair of sandals."
When I see him with his children, ...it hurts because as a child I lived in great poverty, with my parents. I lost my father when I was 11 or 12 years old. My mother took over our upbringing, doing what she could.
Fortunately, my eldest brother, a real man, stepped in to take my father's place. He was the one who got us through that. I love him and respect him like a father.
We are very... all of our relatives, cousins, uncles loved Manolo very much. All of them, when they saw him, would hug him and stay a long time holding him. That was Manolo.
Fortunately, my eldest brother, a real man, stepped in to take my father's place. He was the one who got us through that. I love him and respect him like a father.
We are very... all of our relatives, cousins, uncles loved Manolo very much. All of them, when they saw him, would hug him and stay a long time holding him. That was Manolo.
C: Hipolito, what hppened? What happened yesterday afternoon? There's talk about a confrontation, they say that 5 persons were killed from your group, among them Manolo, but that 6 persons from the rival group, El Americano's group, also died. What happened yesterday in La Ruana?
H: They had already been boasting here in the town that they were going to murder us. They would sometimes pass through here in a caravan, like (they did) two days ago, and would yell at us, "Are you ready? Because your end is getting close." They would yell, and I would tell the boys, "Don't ever talk back to them, they want us to fall for it. Don't answer them."
And each time they would pass through here they would curse us (mentaban la madre), they would point their rifles at us. I would tell the boys, "Don't pay attention to them, steady, steady...we have to wait for the government to do its job. The government already knows that they are criminals, that they're just drug addicts. The government knows that they have grenade launchers, that they have .50 caliber (weapons), they have everything. We have to wait until the Federal (police), the gendarmerie, are given orders to arrest them."
Unfortunately, it didn't happen. We trusted their word, the town found out about it and women and children came to defend us with sticks from the people that came here, because they had threatened that they were going to come...
And they did come. When El Americano was entering the town, there was already a carvan (convoy of trucks) here in town, and he was in another (caravan). When they were entering, the people got in front of him and wouldn't let him go by.
A Federal (police) commander approached me and told me, "Tell them to let him pass."
And I told him, "I cannot, please tell them yourself," and the people didn't let him pass. He turned around, very angry, I don't know what threats he made, but he just turned around, they all turned around with him and they parked themselves some 150 meters from where we were, all the pickups in formation. And then the other caravan arrived, it came from the town, and we ended up between them.
So they get here. And had an idea ... we had placed some people on top of a house that is here in front, and I told them, "Get yourselves up there in case anything happens."
And they came, and they were throwing rocks and more rocks, and they would yell (at us). They stopped in front of us, right in front. Their pickup is still here, but they had 2 pickups, and they kept throwing rocks and more rocks.
Then a guy called Chichunga drove the pickup into the people, and that's how he got in, and he knocked down a cable at the entrance to the property. He cleared the way for them with an armored pickup, cleared the way for a lot of drug addicts that were with them to get inside, running, with weapons, and when I saw that, I told the boys, "This isn't going to end well, and then I heard the first shots."
Then a guy called Chichunga drove the pickup into the people, and that's how he got in, and he knocked down a cable at the entrance to the property. He cleared the way for them with an armored pickup, cleared the way for a lot of drug addicts that were with them to get inside, running, with weapons, and when I saw that, I told the boys, "This isn't going to end well, and then I heard the first shots."
C: From their side?
H: Yes, yes, because we were all yelling at them (H's men), "All of you! Don't fire! Don't fire!, " we yelled at the ones on top of the house, who were still getting rocks thrown at them. We yelled at them loudly and we called them on the radio: "Don't fire!"
And so they came in running, the damned drug addicts, and the first one they hit was my son. They hit him and they hit another man that was with us, an man older than me, a very serious man; he died. At that time, they killed another man who owns a taco and enchilada stand.
When the shots started, they fired at us, I don't know who, but when I heard the shots I thought, "This is a disaster." And that's how the shooting started, and they began to fire at us with everything, from all sides, those sons of bitches, with grenade launchers. Here's the evidence, bring in the investigators, thousands and thousands of rounds fired.
We threw ourselves down on our bellies here in a little room we built with stone and cement walls, specifically to defend ourselves. Here are the .50 caliber bullet impacts, which didn't go through. We couldn't even show our heads, there was so much shooting, a lot, a lot.
The shooting died down a little and I got the phone and called my son. He would always answer. I talked to him and he did not answer, and I told all the boys who were here with me on our bellies behind the little wall about a meter high, the other about 40 centimeters (about 15 inches), we were lying down and I told the boys, "They killed my son."
"No, I don't think so," they said.
"Yes, they killed him. He would always answer when I dialed." I had seen how they had gone over to that side of the highway, from where we heard the first shots. " I called him on the radio and he didn't answer."
After that, it didn't stop. Gunfire, grenades exploding... Here are some pickups, they blew huge holes in them about two hands' widths, on the doors.
C: Hipoplito, you know, you have been at the barricade for hours, you know they could... since you also fired and there are 6 other dead on the other side, you know they could put you in prison? Accused of murder?
H: I know, but I also know that if the laws are applied properly, they have to respect the right of self defense. Because they came here to attack us, here, where we are. We didn't go looking for them, the dead remained here. They came in a convoy, with pickups from different places, not just from here in La Ruana. Those people came from different places, with license plates from different places.
And if the law is applied correctly, I am sure there is no reason for us to go to prison. Because all we did was defend ourselves. We didn't go looking, and we've never gone looking, for anybody.
Alfredo Castillo said it very clearly: "Hipolito Mora never leaves La Ruana". There it is. I've never gone looking for anybody to murder them.
And if the law is applied correctly, I am sure there is no reason for us to go to prison. Because all we did was defend ourselves. We didn't go looking, and we've never gone looking, for anybody.
Alfredo Castillo said it very clearly: "Hipolito Mora never leaves La Ruana". There it is. I've never gone looking for anybody to murder them.
C: This afternoon, they haven't allowed you to leave the barricade, they haven't allowed you to go to your homes?
H: No.
C: Are you under arrest in some way?
H: Well, you could say so, because they have not allowed us to leave.
C: Where are you right this minute?
H: At the barricade, here, where everything happened.
C: But the police have not gotten there...?
H: Yes, they came last night. Castillo's most trusted ministerial police have been conducting the investigation.
C: So then, who's not allowing you to leave?
H: The Army. So, then, I told the boys, "This is beginning to look bad. Those guys want to arrest us. They're going to come up with that in a little while, and that's not fair, because all we did was defend ourselves."
Now, there is another very important thing: After the gunfire ended, some Federal police grabbed five rifles from some of my boys, and their pistols. They haven't returned them. I don't know why they took them.
And yet, with El Americano, they went over there, they helped them load the wounded and all that shit, and then, "Ok, you guys can leave..." They allowed them to take all their pickups and didn't arrest anybody, they didn't take anyone's weapons. However, they're going to take away all of the vehicles from our side.
C: (Another interviewer's voice): Hipolito, good day to you, a strong hug. Yesterday, last night, Alfredo Castillo was saying that there is no need to harass anybody, we have to wait until the investigations are done...
H: If they do them correctly, I don't have anything to worry about. I don't have anything to worry about. But I'm beginning to see some things that I am not liking, how they are working (this) and... whatever they decide, I won't be surprised, good or bad.
C: Hipolito, I want to ask you, what's next? After the investigations, what next for Hipolito Mora after this?
H: Go forward with my ideals.
C: In La Ruana?
H: Wherever possible.
C: What does "wherever possible" mean, Hipolito?
H: Wherever possible, wherever the people accept me, wherever the people are tired like we are. And whoever wants to do anything, wherever it may be... If we have to stay with the Fuerzas Rurales (Rural Police Forces), we'll stay here. The boys are very poor, they are lemon pickers. I have my own lemon grove, very small, but I have it. And we'll continue here, and hope everything ends well. I hope, to change the subject a little, that Mr. Murillo Karam (Mexico Attorney General) takes the case, and I trust him. He should decide what to do.
C: Has it been worth it, this struggle that has lasted almost two years, Hipolito?
H: Yes, it has been worth it, although things have not come out like I would have hoped, because of evil people who think only of money, who only think of power, those are the people who, until now, have not allowed us to do things right.
C: With your permission... you and I spoke on Sunday, not on the air. You were saying, "I'm afraid, I fear for my life, I'm afraid that the people from that group, including the government;s people, are going to kill me, I fear for myself, for my family."
You told me this on Sunday, Hipolito, around noon?
You told me this on Sunday, Hipolito, around noon?
H: Yes, that's true. I have been thinking that for several months. I told some government employees to do something before something bad like this happened. Something that could not be repaired. Unfortunately, they paid no attention to me, I don't know why that is. But I really begged them. The only thing I did not do was fall on my knees. (I told) them to put in a lot of security in this area because it was very dangerous here, more dangerous than anywhere else.
And those problems that we're having, the majority of the towns also have them. The thing is that over there, they don't speak up. The people can't get themselves to do it. They're scared, silent.
C: Well, then, it was worth it and you will continue the struggle wherever it may be.
H: That's it.
C: Aren't you afraid of going to jail?
H: I'm worried that they'll try to put me in jail. I'm very worried.
C: Thank you.
H: Thank you, and I hope you'll be well.